Will it be possible for Nigeria to recover the looted funds President Buhari said were stashed away in foreign banks by some officials of past administrations?
I think it will be possible. When we met in Vienna some years ago, a point was made that any country that had its banks keeping money from corrupt officials of another country must refund the monies to the country of origin. Part of the law was very well incorporated in the United Nations Convention Against Corruption. I went there to represent Nigeria and I signed on behalf of the people and government of Nigeria. I have no doubt that such money will be recovered.
But some people say it will take a long time before such funds can be recovered?
If there is genuine commitment by the two countries, it may not take such a long time. Of course, we should remember that some countries returned looted funds during the administration of the late Head of State, General Sanni Abacha. If you see an administration that is genuinely committed to fighting corruption, there will be assistance both nationally and internationally. I was telling a member of the ICPC that during the administration of former President Goodluck Jonathan, you people did not act very well; now that you have a president who is determined and committed to fighting corruption, you should act. All of us must be actively involved in the fight against corruption. Nigerians should stop celebrating corrupt people. We need to change our orientation.
Are you saying the Jonathan administration was not serious in the fight against corruption?
Everybody knows that. How many people were arrested during his tenure? How many high profile cases were the defendants convicted? What did the ICPC do? What did the EFCC do? We know what his (Jonathan) body language was about corruption. Nobody was really keen on the fight against corruption. His administration generally was not very active in frontally tackling corruption. Now that a new man has come and has made it a cardinal focus of his administration to fight corruption, and he has started, we must encourage him. We should continue to work hard to see that we stamp out corruption in this country.
Now that President Buhari has met with the United States President, is there hope that the fight against corruption will yield results?
Yes, it will. Before President Buhari, America had not been very supportive of Nigeria. This is due to the fact that corruption had become rampant in Nigeria. We also know that for a very long time, there had been a lull in the fight against corruption, especially by the ICPC. Also, the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission had been losing some high profile cases. Corruption has become a big menace to national development and the international community had been watching. The Americans cannot do everything for us. They have their own issues to deal with. It is important that we all work together. As they have pledged to assist us in fighting corruption, such commitment and support will obviously boost the fight against graft in Nigeria. I think first of all, the interest of Nigeria is paramount. Whether he goes to Obama or not, Nigeria stands to gain. When you are outside the country and you know what is happening in other countries, you feel sad for our country. I believe that with the cooperation that he gets from all and sundry, not only America, even from Nigerians, he will really fight corruption. I am happy that he is on course.
Some Nigerians have termed the recent swoop on the former National Security Adviser, Col Sambo Dasuki (retd) by the Department of State Security as illegal. What is your take on this?
Nobody is above the law. Once they have the warrant, they are at liberty to search anybody. If there is a warrant given by a magistrate or a judge, they can execute such on a suspect. They cannot just go and search without having information or a warrant. I do not see anything wrong with the DSS' action. If there is nothing found, then the person is exonerated. If something is found, the security agency will then go ahead to the next level. Anybody suspected to have committed a crime should be investigated.
But the Peoples Democratic Party members are saying they are being treated as criminals by the Buhari-led administration?
No, I don't think so. The PDP will talk like that because it's an opposition party. But what is important is the interest of Nigerians, which should be paramount. We must ensure that we place national interest above personal or sectional interest. If anybody does something which is inimical to the interest of Nigeria, that fellow must be dealt with. This is not a PDP or APC issue. How do we make Nigeria better? How do we make Nigeria great?
So the fight against corruption should go on?
It must go on fully — 100 per cent. I support it.
So far, Jonathan's aides are the ones being probed. Won't APC members, who have been accused of corruption, also be probed?
When you assume any position of power, you do not hold things back. You will honestly consider the situation you met on ground and seek how to solve it. Buhari has repeatedly said he would fight corruption. He did not say he would exonerate members of his party or anybody. He cannot handle everything all together at the same time. But whatever he is going to handle must be done quickly and expeditiously. I do not think he will allow any member of his party, the APC, who is corrupt to go scot-free.
If PDP knows anybody in APC that has done something bad, let them report such person with confidence. When they do that, then the authorities will take over. In ICPC, you cannot arrest anybody until they bring his case. If somebody has done something that is wrong, then let them report to the appropriate authorities after which the Police, the ICPC and the EFCC can take action.
Some economists have advised that Buhari should focus more on blocking financial leakages instead of pursuing looters and their loots.
The government must not only block leakages in government, it should also try as much as possible to trace looted funds and get them repatriated or recovered. If you block leakages and do not recover looted funds, you will be unfair to Nigerians who are supposed to have benefited from such common wealth or national resources that have been looted. Those looters will be enjoying the resources of the nation at the detriment of all Nigerians. Can you imagine the level of development the country would have attained if those funds were used justly to develop the country? Do you know how many people who might have died or were injured as a result of their inability to access some public amenities which those funds would have been used to execute in the country? Imagine the jobs that would have been provided for the teeming unemployed Nigerians if the funds had been invested into projects in Nigeria. Do you not think that such projects would have stimulated economic growth and industrialisation, as well as improve the welfare and living standard of Nigerians who are the legitimate owners of those stolen and ill-gotten wealth? Recovering the funds would also provide money for the government of the day to prosecute its developmental agenda which will have overall benefit to Nigerians.
Should plea bargaining remain an option for corrupt individuals in court?
I have always kicked against plea bargaining. Someone is corrupt and has inflicted injuries on the society by his corruption, why should we be talking of plea bargaining? If a man has stolen, he has committed a crime. The issue of plea bargaining is not fair. The man that stole billions of naira and now resorts to plea bargaining, he then loses part of the money and enjoys a great percentage of the stolen funds. Is that right? Of course it is not. It is a way of enhancing corruption.
There is concern about the prosecutorial abilities of the anti-graft agencies, with the EFCC losing several high profile cases in court. How should this problem be addressed?
There are two ways. First, the prosecutor must be competent and efficient. Another issue is the courts; they must appreciate that fighting corruption or dealing with cases of corruption is very important. The judge must understand the underpinning philosophy of the fight against corruption. Both the prosecutor and the judge must appreciate that to fight corruption to the hilt, they themselves must be versatile. They must work hard. The investigation must be thorough. The anti-graft agencies must not take someone to court unless they are satisfied that they have enough evidence so that people do not see them as unserious.
The judges themselves must also know that corruption is a very serious crime. It is the mother of all crimes. Therefore, they must understand the need to handle it seriously. Somebody is convicted of stealing billions and you just give him option of fine that he can pay on the back of his hand. At the end of the day, people will know that the convict was not punished severely. I think the judges and the prosecutors will have to work harder and accept the challenge that Buhari has thrown at all of us.
Now that the agencies are waking up to prosecute high profile Nigerians alleged to have been corrupt in office. Does it have anything to do with Buhari?
First, know that these set of governors who are being prosecuted now is because they could not be prosecuted when they were in office because of their immunity. Now that they are out of office, that is why they (anti-graft agencies) are able to grab them and it coincided with the time when the new President came on board. It is encouraging that while they have a government that is ready to fight corruption, let the judges and anti-graft agencies rise up to the occasion and justify the expectations of the people.
In your assessment, how did the anti-graft agencies fare under the last administration?
They fared poorly. When the head of the anti-graft agency did not believe in prosecution, there was a lull on those who took over from him and it appeared as if there was no anti-graft body working. But now, I think this is the time for them to rise up to the occasion. I believe that this is the moment for all of us to accept the challenge from the executive so that we can fight corruption to the hilt and also fight insurgency. The truth of the matter is that there should be reorientation of our people and a change of their attitude to life. Corruption is rife and nobody can deny it. The current government, when it was campaigning, said it was going to fight corruption. After the campaign, the President still maintains that he is going to fight corruption. We will become happier that at least we live in peace and that corruption did not kill us.
Is stealing not corruption?
When a man steals, the money he has stolen, is it a gift? It is something gotten by crooked and foul means. The former administration did not see corruption as anything bad because once you begin to say that corruption is mere stealing, it is very sad. Whether stealing or corruption, they are all evils that must be swept away by this administration.
Despite the prevalence of corruption in the country, the ICPC and similar agencies have not been able to secure a considerable number of convictions. What could be the impediments?
I agree with you. They have not succeeded in getting convictions. That is why I said the prosecutors must work hard to ensure that they secure convictions. The judges must live up to expectations and make sure that they do not discharge people for flimsy or technical reasons. They must see corruption as the bane of our society. I am sure that with the challenge that we now face, everybody will work hard to make sure that we get the guilty people convicted.
How can Nigeria's anti-corruption agencies be truly independent?
First, they should be well funded. Government must ensure that anybody working for them is above corruption. Whoever is the chairman or member of the committee must be above board and incorruptible individuals. Once they are committed and well funded, things will work well. Also, there must be political will and the determination of the leadership and followers. Then, they (the agencies) will get their independence.
What motivation, training, equipment do you think are needed by anti-graft agencies' personnel?
It is when you have the funds that you can talk of motivation and getting equipment. The personnel of anti-graft agencies should undertake vigorous trainings. When I was there, we tried to set up an academy. I do not know whether it is still working. I understand that they have set up where they go for training now. Some of them also attend training with the DSS and the Police. They need to get all the necessary trainings because you cannot fight corruption well without good training. I am sure those who are there will make sure that things go better.
Sometimes the ruling class uses the ICPC and other security agencies to persecute their opponents. How did you handle situations like that?
When I was there, I set up various committees which handled responsibilities. There are many departments. I had good lawyers who were incorruptible; who were prepared to work day and night and make sure that they succeeded. We laid a very solid foundation. Unfortunately, things broke down after I left. But I still believe that those who are there, some of them are very good and honest. What is absolutely important is integrity and people who are honest and prepared to work. With the solid foundation laid, if they build on it, we shall succeed.
With the EFCC and the ICPC performing almost the same anti-corruption duties, won't it be ideal to merge the two institutions for efficiency?
I have always said merger is not the issue because the functions of the ICPC had been defined under the Act that set up the commission. The functions of the EFCC have been set up under the Act which set it up. The EFCC is to deal with money laundering and economic sabotage. The ICPC is to deal with cases of corruption and corrupt practices or allied offences. They are clearly defined. Because of the enormity of the crime, because of the problem involved, let them work as they are working. But the only thing is that they should put in more efforts.
Do governors and other highly placed citizens of this country try to or pervert the course of justice sometimes?
I believe that the courts are responsible for the administration of justice and no competent judge will pervert justice because every judge is expected to deliver judgment without fear or favour, affection or ill-will. If any judge goes against the ethics of the profession for anyone to subvert or attempt to pervert justice, that is condemnable. Justice is an attribute of God himself and those who are in the citadel of justice are expected to do justice without fear or favour.
What can be done to ensure that the ICPC agents are not compromised?
Any official who is found to have been compromised should be shown the way out and dealt with ruthlessly, and should be prosecuted if possible. When I was at the ICPC, a lawyer tried to misbehave, he was prosecuted. We have gotten judges prosecuted. We have gotten ministers prosecuted. Once they start prosecuting people, they will be careful.
What regrets do you have as a former ICPC boss?
I have no regrets. I did my best. I leave the rest to history.
But the tempo of how you wanted the anti-corruption campaign to be, appeared to have nosedived after your administration. How do you feel about that?
I feel bad that things did not move the way I expected. But I still feel that it is not too late to have the moment of high tempo of fight against graft. And we shall succeed.
Source: punch
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